Original Version, MOO Conversation for
Queerness,
Sexuality, Technology, and Writing: How Do Queers Write Ourselves When
We Write
in Cyberspace?
[log
started
Participants:
Keith, Barclay (guest), Angela (guest), RandyW, Saffista, Jonathan
(guest), and Jackie
(guest)
Keith turns Keith's
recorder on.
Keith says, "welcome to
AcadianaMOO"
Keith says, "and thanks
all for coming... the recorder
is running and we're live from Acadiana!"
Keith says, "why don't
folks introduce themselves since
I don't know if everyone knows everyone else...."
Saffista is Samantha
Blackmon, Purdue,
Barclay (guest) is
Barclay Barrios,
Saffista . o O ( Acadiana
always makes me hum "Dirty
Diana" )
RandyW says, "I'm Randy
Woodland, University of
Michigan-Dearborn."
Keith is Keith Dorwick,
assistant professor at the
Jonathan (guest) is
Jonathan Alexander,
Keith laughs and then
cuts THAT from the log with a great
big pair of scissors
Angela (guest) thanks
god, because then she doesn't have to
do it...
Angela (guest) says,
"though i'm at
Keith..."
Keith says, "for the
final version, I'll ask you all
for formal bios but for now... "
Barclay (guest) says,
"gotcha"
Keith says, "intros will
do"
Keith says, "i'll watch
for Jackie at the front
door"
Keith says, "for the
record"
Keith says, "jonathan,
Angela and I are the editors of
this piece"
Keith says, "and after we
finish this conversation,
I'll arrange it in order then angle and Jonathan will ask you all for
annotations to expand on what happens"
Saffista nods
Keith says, "this means
you don't have to worry about
saying it all right now... you can add to the conversation later"
Barclay (guest) says,
"phew"
Keith nods
Keith says, "ok first
question: . We will begin by
asking what your favorite queer site is or which queer site you see as
most
significant (and why) "
Barclay (guest) says,
"umm are we going in order, or
jumping in?"
Keith says, "and I guess
as one of the authors of that
question, I could see it meaning either personally or professionally,
or
both"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Jump in, Barclay."
Keith says, "jump in!"
Saffista says,
"Interestingly enough my favorite/most
signif site isn't exclusively queer does it still count?"
Barclay (guest) says, "My
favorite site? Hrm. The
problem I have with this question is that to answer it is to out my
specific
desires, which is something Id rather not do until Im tenured [g]. But
with
this hesitation, I guess I am at least willing to admit that my
favorite queer
sites have a lot to do with meeting people who share my particular
configurations of queer desires. Im hoping that will be answer enough."
Barclay (guest) says, "As
for the most significant
queer site, I would actually have to choose something thats neither
specifically queer nor actually a siteAmerica Online: it allows for
multiple,
stable online identities (allowing people to explore new queer
identities and
manage their outness online); it has chat rooms for all kinds of queers
(allowing queers to find other queers); its instant messaging creates
private
conversation in public online spaces (allowing more private
explorations of
desires and interests); and its where I first started learning HTML.
Plus,
there was the GLBT area& what was it called? On Q?"
Barclay (guest) says,
"chunked enough?"
Keith says, "yep"
Angela (guest) says, "
Saffista, it still
counts, in my opinion..."
RandyW says, "I was going
to say AOL, as well -- in
part to watch the smoke come out of
Keith's ears."
Jonathan (guest) says,
"I'm experiencing a little of
what Barclay mentions about hesitating to name one's desire--even on
the other
side of the tenure line..."
Barclay (guest) nods
Saffista says, "ok, then
I have to vote for
Blackplanet.com or at least the queer spaces there. It seems that this
is where
every black queer person that I run across hangs out online"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"But I will say that my favorite
"queer sites"--whatever THAT means--are ones that have initially
pushed my boundaries of sexuality..."
Jackie (guest) steps into
the Southwestern Cafe.
Keith says, "hello,
Jackie"
Saffista says, "BP fills
a big void for most Q black
folk out in the sticks where there are few black folk or out Q folk"
Barclay (guest) says,
"what's interesting, then,
Jonathan, is that the Web let's us be out online in ways that we may
not be
comfortable in everyone knowing"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...ones that have provoked me
to reconsider what I, personally, find attractive, or am attracted
to..."
Keith says, "could you
introduce yourself; everyone
else, I've given Jackie the first question already"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Indeed, Barclay."
Jackie (guest) says,
"hello"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Jackie Rhodes here"
Saffista waves to Jackie
Jonathan (guest) waves
too...
Barclay (guest) says, "
Saffista, would you say
then that the intersection of race
and sexuality creates *particular* complications?"
Keith says, "for me the
site of choice is certainly
gay.com though it drives me crazy in a lot of ways... it's SUCH a
commercial
site"
Saffista [to Barclay
(guest)]: most definitely
Jackie (guest) says,
"I've been trying to figure out
what might be the MOST significant queer site for me...."
Saffista says,
"especially when the are geographical
issues as well"
Barclay (guest) says,
"gay.com IS a biggie, yes -- but
for many of the same reasons I would say AOL is"
Jackie (guest) says, "As
I was thinking about it,
though, I realized that a lot of my queer space/experience online has
been
centered in spaces like this one."
Keith says, "yes and it's
been a lifesave"
Keith says, "r even"
Jackie (guest) pokes
Jonathan
Barclay (guest) says,
"like IRC, too, Jackie?"
RandyW says, "I think the
significance of AOL was (and
perhaps no longer is) 1) the ways in made all parts of the Internet
(including
the queer parts) available to almost anyone (without special tools
and/or
costumes)"
Keith says, "I grew up in
Barclay (guest) says,
"though costumes can come in
handy, Randy"
Barclay (guest) smiles
Keith says, "and felt
VERY isolated...."
Jackie (guest) says,
"Barclay, yes, IRC and
MOOs--interactive spaces with pick-your-own identity "
RandyW says, "and 2) the
way in which LGBT folk
"queered" AOL and its standard array of communicative avenues"
Barclay (guest) has a
history with IRC, too
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: or developing your own
identity
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Oddly enough, speaking of
issues of isolation and connectivity, even in a large community of
queers, I'm
surprised at how much I want to communicate with queers specifically in
ONLINE
spaces..."
Keith says, "so without
it, I don't know how I would
have survived a distance relationship and all that good stuff"
Barclay (guest) says,
"Jonathan, NYC seems to be at the
front of that shock wave -- bars are dying even in the big city because
queers
meet each other online"
Jackie (guest) says, "I
remember my first interactive
online experience was a queer one--on AOL of all places."
Saffista wonders how much
what she does online now extends
from exploration done before one actually comes out (exploration online
that
is)
Keith [to Jonathan
(guest)]: I agree: it's more important
for me to be online then to go out to the bars. I find the interactions
more
interesting..
Angela (guest) says,
"what do you mean,
Saffista?"
Barclay (guest) wonders
how young the next generation of
queers will be
Keith says, "five?"
Barclay (guest) wonders
what HE would have done with the Web
at his disposal while a teen
Saffista [to Angela
(guest)]: before I came out I built
online community to prepare myself for RL
Jonathan (guest) says,
"yes, yes, more than this,
tho'...I think that, for me, the online space takes away some of the
body
consciousness that seems to permeate gay MALE culture and
interaction..."
Saffista says, "now that
I am out I still depend on VR
for community now that I am in the sticks"
Barclay (guest) says,
"depends on WHICH gay male
culture, of course"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"of course..."
Barclay (guest) says,
"same is true even without the
sticks,
Saffista"
Angela (guest) says, "so
the web was part of the coming
out process for you?"
Saffista smiles at
Barclay
Keith says, "oh yes: in
bars, for instance, older guys
can't really talk to younger guys until they know them and they can't
know till
they talk to them. The barriers are much lower here (and by here I mean
online)."
Barclay (guest) smiles
back
Jackie (guest) says,
"yes....although it's a body
consciousness that permeates all sorts of cultures; and face it, hey,
there are
acrobatics you can do here that you'd never do in RL"
RandyW agrees with
Barclay, remembering a friend's printed
comment (in WIRED) that in MOO-space, only the best writers get laid.
Saffista [to Angela
(guest)]: yep. It gave me a space to
contemplate my feelings
Barclay (guest) says,
"and it's easier to have a
conversation without loud bar music"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"the pleasures of the
text..."
Keith says, "same with
race which is not a huge issue
in southwestern
Jackie (guest) says, "In
1995, I'd just gotten my new
Mac Performa 630 and aol.com service...."
Barclay (guest) says,
"just so
RandyW -- in part I like
meeting people online because I am
master of the element, master of text"
Angela (guest) says, "I
wonder how much our sense of
queer locations on-line has to do with when we came out...(or when we
will come
out)"
Saffista [to Angela
(guest)]: good question
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Interesting, Anglea..."
Jackie (guest) says, "I
discovered the lesbian
chatrooms on aol. I was blown away--it was my first moment of AHA! "
Barclay (guest) came out
pre-Web, but just barely
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Me too..."
Keith says, "yes and
people who don't well in
cyberspace often don't do well because they so fail at its rhetoric"
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: I discovered them on Prodigy
back in the days of BBs and chatrooms
Jackie (guest) says, "AHA
on the internet, that
is--like oh, wow, I see what the big deal might be..."
RandyW came out pre-PC.
Barclay (guest) says, "so
THAT'S why composition
matters -- it gets you laid"
Barclay (guest) smiles
Saffista laughs
Keith is older than most
of you, he thinks, so he was out
way before the web, but the web has certainly changed HOW I am out
Jackie (guest) came out
in 1984....
Barclay (guest) says,
"1988ish"
Keith laughs at Barclay's
line
Keith says, "ready for
this? 1975"
Saffista says, "the early
90s"
Barclay (guest) says,
"whoa Daddy!"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"1989"
Keith says, "you bet,
Boy"
Barclay (guest) says, "I
was 5"
Barclay (guest) laughs
Saffista says, "I was 6"
Jackie (guest) says, "I
was 18"
Keith glares
Saffista smiles at
Keith
Keith says, "oh shush,
y'awl..."
Angela (guest) says, "and
aging becomes an issue for
conversation..."
Barclay (guest) says,
"how so Angela?"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"It's curious that, of all the
things to talk about, we return to this seemingly most "basic"
question of identity..."
Keith says, "I think it's
way easier for gueers to
negoitate aging in cyberspace than in any other space."
Jackie (guest) says,
"Age? I think, actually, that it's
a particularly queer question of identity...not just age, but 'when did
you
come out'"
Angela (guest) says,
"well it seems our queer
experiences on line may be inflected through many age related
experiences"
Keith says, "it's not so
readily availalbe as
information with which we can discriminate against one another."
Barclay (guest) says,
"though again,
Keith, that depends on
WHICH community -- some segments of
the gay male culture value and venerate age (and experience)"
Jackie (guest) says, "Or
'how did you come out...'
Another trope; the narrative of queer identity"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"yes"
Barclay (guest) says,
"good point Jackie"
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: I think the how question gets
dealt with a lot in RL too
Keith says, "right, and
Daddy/Boy allows that seepage
to occur; in fact, that set of roles allows aging to be not only ok,
but in
fact, hot."
Jackie (guest) says, "I
think that, for me, points to a
particular way in which online spaces and queer identities
intersect..."
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Yes, let's go there,
Jackie."
Saffista says, "My coming
out was much less personal,
prolly because of my online experience"
Jackie (guest) says, "For
me, identity has always
been--at least as the 'coming out' story goes--a matter of narrative
movement."
Barclay (guest) says,
"and the online world is a
narrative world"
Saffista nods
RandyW says, "or many
narrative worlds."
Keith says, "that allows
people to 'practice' different
roles"
Jackie (guest) says, "Oh,
I dunno."
Saffista says, "mine was
so driven by narrative that I
told my mom with a book :-)"
Jackie (guest) says,
"I've been a practicing lesbian
for a while..."
Keith says, "i know many
of my students, for instance,
came out online well before they came out rl"
Barclay (guest) laughs
Jackie (guest) says,
"Practice makes perfect"
Saffista laughs
Barclay (guest) says, "I
think that will be
increasingly true,
Keith"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"But what's perfection?"
Keith says, "yes, and HIV
works that way too" [
Keith came out as poz
first online well before he came out
as poz to anyone rl except close friends, partner and family.
Keith wonders if all of
this leads to our second question:
Jonathan (guest) says,
"In terms of narrating my
sexuality/sexual identity vis-a-vis the Internet, I'm reminded of some
powerful
trips to homophobic sites..."
Barclay (guest) says,
"good point, I imagine that's
multiply true -- some, for example, may come out as kinky or as bears
online
first"
Keith says, " Can you
imagine being queer without
technologyor queer without the internet? "
Jackie (guest) says, "For
me, the lesbian identity is
not necessarily a cyber-intensive one, but the queer identity might be"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Hmmmmm, I'm not sure if I even
understood myself on that last one."
Keith [to Jackie
(guest)]: that's interesting. can you
expand on that?
RandyW says, "I'm
reminded of conversations with gay
men of an earlier generation who said that WE had it so much easier
because
there were bars out in the open, student gay groups, etc. In one way,
online
spaces can be seen as an extension of those gueer-identified spaces."
Keith says, "you might
have to save it for an
annotation!"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Yes,
RandyW..."
Barclay (guest) says, "Of
course& because I was.
But the fact that we can even ask this question reminds me of a talk by
Gayle
Rubin that I attended recently. Rubin was discussing geologies of queer
studies, and she used the metaphor of geology to suggest that new queer
knowledges are built on top of old ones, like geological strata."
Barclay (guest) says,
"which is just what Randy is
talking about, on some level"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Well, if I followed my logic, and
I'm not sure I can, but 'lesbian' seems fraught with a different
politic/rhetoric than queer"
Saffista says, "While I
think I can imagine being queer
without the internet, I don't know how well I can imagine coming out
without
it"
Keith can remember what
it was like -- I was out years
before I started doing bulleting boards and IRC
Jackie (guest) says, "In
that 'lesbian' draws more
directly on Spivak's strategic essentialism, and perhaps needs a
certain
solidity of I AM "
RandyW nods
enthusiastically, will annotate later a book
about gay life in the South that talks about the role of highways and
cars in
rural
Jackie (guest) says, "And
queer does not."
Barclay (guest) says,
"So, before chat rooms, there
were bars. Before homepages and emails, there were personal ads and
letters.
Before the gif, there was the actual photograph. Before the newsgroup,
there
was the club. Before porn sites, there were magazines and videos. What
we do
online may feel (may even be) new, but it is built on what came before.
And so
Im reminded too of Neil Bartletts _Who Was That Man?_ , Tzvetan
Todorovs The
Origin of Genres, and Denis Barons From Pencils to Pixels, all of which
to some
degree meditate on the linkages between what is and what came before."
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: yes!
Saffista says, "Perhaps
it is that the Internet helped
me bring it into being by claiming it"
RandyW says, "and before
Gay.com -- there were M4M
rooms on AOL -- I've always had a theory that M4M started as code to
avoid
AOL's content controls -- or is it just telgraphic language?"
Keith [to Barclay
(guest)]: all that's true of course, but
does this allow us more scope than other gathering places did? I know
as a
rural queer (it's SO strange for me to embrace that but I realized it
was so
the first time I agreed to drive an hour to meet a friend for lunch
without
thinking of that as unusual) and without cyberspace my life would be
much less
rich...
Jackie (guest) says, "I
think that the
bar-->chatroom movement is interesting, as are the other movements
Barclay
refers to"
Barclay (guest) says,
"I've always wondered, Randy, but
now it circulates beyond AOL"
RandyW has a similar
theory about "boi"
Angela (guest) says, "so
Jackie, is the lesbian
identity the lived in real life identity?"
Angela (guest) says, "and
the queer identity lived on
the screen?"
Jackie (guest) says, "But
I'm always reminded of the
weird and different ways gay men and lesbians structure their bars"
Barclay (guest) agrees
with Randy
Barclay (guest) says,
"pig, too"
Keith thinks it might
have to do with the helping
professions and sociologists and MSM (men who have sex with men), thus
avoiding
the label 'gay'
Jackie (guest) shudders
at the memory of all those lesbians
slow-dancing to Melissa Etheridge.
RandyW says, "their bars,
their relationships, all
kinds of social groupings."
Keith laughs
Keith [to Barclay
(guest)]: you mean all those are codes
that get past parental controls?
Jackie (guest) says,
"Actually, I think that queer life
online helped me expand my own sense of sexuality"
Saffista like Melissa
Etheridge, still
Jonathan (guest) says,
"I'm intrigued by Angela's
question.... I wonder: am I more queer on the screen than IRL?"
RandyW shudders at the
memory of waiting for the one slow
dance they played at
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Jackie--that's just what I was
saying before you entered..."
Keith says, "if so,
that's interesting but I think it
goes beyond that; those positive labels always name something that is
distressing to the gay community and refigure them in such as way as to
be
acceptable"
Jackie (guest) says, "I
more readily play with queer
theory now, although I identify much more--for political reasons--as
lesbian"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"There's a way in which I have a
very run-of-the-mill GAY life..."
Saffista . o O ( Nommo )
Barclay (guest) has
disconnected.
Keith sways to Last
Dance, Last Chance for Love...
Jackie (guest) nods at
Jonathan
Barclay (guest) has
connected. The disconnected
Barclay (guest) decides
he's outstayed his welcome and goes
home.
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...and then online I've found a
variety of things that have turned my head, as it were, ..."
Keith will edit that
disappearance out
Jackie (guest) says,
"Yes, I'm a very much more
exciting queer online than a lesbian in rl"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...and that I've just HAD to
try IRL..."
Keith is the same way as
a gay man
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...and I'm not sure I ever
would've run into those things IRL..."
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
much more queer online"
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: why do you think that is?
Jackie (guest) says, "The
play of language and
identity"
Jackie (guest) says, "The
sense of possibility, of no
bounds"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"the possiblity of
imagination..."
Saffista wonders if a
sense of freedom might also contribute
to that (for herself)
Jackie (guest) says, "I
think that online queerness
pushes you to push; to follow your desires to (il)logical conclusions"
Saffista says, "as my
freshman writers say about MOOs,
no reprecussions"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"that's not true..."
RandyW says, "I think
part of this labeling is this
wonderful creative, self-expression that those of us in this room
celebrate.
But another part is the efficiency of the information age. People are
looking
for very specific kinds of information about potential sexual partners
online
-- info that's been relatively unavaible IRL."
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
more of a flirt online; I'm
more physical, believe it or not."
Barclay (guest) steps
into the Southwestern Cafe.
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
much more in my head in RL
than online"
Keith [to Saffista]: but
there ARE reprecussions
Saffista says, "what;s
not true Jonathan>?"
Angela (guest) says,
"hm...and so the conservative
lesbian encounters her queer self?"
Keith says, "you know how
it goes when things get said
that ought not to be said"
Jonathan (guest) says, "I
don't think these are spaces
w/o repercussions..."
Saffista [to Keith]:
true, but at times it feels as if there
are none
Barclay (guest) has
disconnected.
Saffista agrees
Barclay (guest) has
connected.
Jonathan (guest) says,
"yes, and I wonder about
that...is that what's queer?"
Jackie (guest) says, "So
in some ways, I'd say that
online space--especially MOO/IRC space--embodies people" The
disconnected
Barclay (guest) decides
he's outstayed his welcome and goes
home.
Keith says, "it's exactly
those people who either do
well or awfully though"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Well, I'd never describe myself
as CONSERVATIVE really..."
Keith says, "that's odd!
I'd agree about MOO, but NEVER
about IRC"
Angela (guest) says, "I'm
sorry, i can't remember the
word you used above..."
Keith says, "it feels the
most disembodied space of
all" [
Jonathan (guest) says,
"But to me, it's EXTREMELY
embodied..."
Angela (guest) says,
"take back conservative..."
guest steps into the Southwestern Cafe. guest says, "argh!!"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...well, maybe not
EXTREMELY..."
----------------------------------Keith
------------------------------- ---
Jackie (guest) says,
"Yes, I'm a
very much more exciting queer online than a lesbian in rl"
---------------------------Keith
stops pasting
------------------------ ---
Jackie (guest) says, "My
experience with IRC has been
with people I know in RL, so that changes it a bit"
Keith says, "that would"
guest is much more queer
online than otherwise guest changes his name to
Barclay (guest).
Jackie (guest) says, "Ah,
not CONSERVATIVE, Angela,
just unexciting."
Jackie (guest) )
Jackie (guest) smiles
Saffista says, "For me it
has a lot to do with how
connected I feel to that community"
Keith says, "whereas for
me, it's an extension of the
technology"
Saffista says, "Is it
someplace where I know and am
known, or just someplace I am visiting"
Keith says, "moo makes me
most embodied of all"
Keith catches a glimpse
of himself in a mirror and says, not
bad, daddio...
Barclay (guest) giggles
Saffista [to Keith]: this
is true of MOOs because you have a
"body"
Jackie (guest) says, "In
my MOO life, I have better
clothes..."
Saffista says, "and you
verb :-)"
Keith nods excitedly
Jackie (guest) pokes
Jonathan
Saffista verbs well
Barclay (guest) says, "do
profiles construct bodies
online?"
RandyW says, "our LGBT
campus student group has begun
holding online meetings (replacing some IRL meetings) to accomodate
members who
are not out enought to attend a RL meeting."
Keith says, "pictures
help"
Saffista nods
Jackie (guest) says, "Do
they have to be real
pictures"
Jonathan (guest)
compliments Jackie on her attire tonight...
Keith [to RandyW]: that's
interesting, do they like it?
Jackie (guest) says, "You
like the top hat?"
Keith [to Jackie
(guest)]: of course not unless you intend
to meet
Keith says, "then they
HAVE to be!"
Jonathan (guest) says, "I
like the jockstrap,
actually..."
Jackie (guest) says,
"Yes, I'm the Gender Wrangler
tonight"
Keith laughs at the idea
of Jackie in a top hat and a
jockstrap
Barclay (guest) nods
Barclay (guest) is
experiencing serious lag
Saffista interesting
picture there
Saffista says, "opps"
Keith thinks another
question may help
Jonathan (guest) is sorry
Barclay is having technical
difficulties...
Keith says, " We don't
automatically assume that
technology is queer...but we know that we've attempted to use
technology for
queer purposes. What are those purposes? What are those rhetorical
events? What
are those compositional imaginings? Would we mark them as successful
queer
moments? "
Keith is too
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Ever show your students
godhatesfags in the classroom?"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Well, most obviously, the
community building for queer folk out in the sticks. I lived in
Keith says, "I'm finding
myself increasingly interested
in online journals/blogs/spaces for queers"
RandyW says, "they've
just started this semester,
Keith. I'll let you know.
The group has an interest
cyberhistory -- during a fallow period when a lot of the active members
had
graduated, the group was little more than a web message board for
several
years. It has now embodied itself again."
Barclay (guest) says,
"i've been working on pride
flags"
Barclay (guest) says, ".
Im thinking of one kind of
rhetorical event/compositional imagining that Id argue is pretty
uniquely
queer: the pride flag. Theyve really exploded online, and each time I
think Ive
seen them all I run across a new one. Its a kind of composition that
seems to
rely heavily on technology because its easier to make a flag
graphically than
fabrically and because its easier to disseminate that flag
electronically than
materially."
Keith [to Jonathan
(guest)]: I did that just yesterday. I
may have solved the class size problem with that site.
Saffista laughs at
Keith
Keith says, "they were,
thank God, appalled"
RandyW says, "and so much
more cost-effective than
flying Phelps in,
Keith!"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"but would they be appalled if
you took them to a radical fairie site, K-boy?"
Keith reminds everyone
that due to the school board issue,
he WAS here
Saffista says, "This last
question takes me back to my
earlier response about VL helping with the coming out, affecting it in
a very
real way and then later becoming (once again) almost my sole source of
gay
community."
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
wondering...when we talk
about technology and queer issues, do we JUST mean online/internet
technologies?"
RandyW says, "Oh, I
didn't realize that,
Keith"
Keith [to Jonathan
(guest)]: I think that would be more
appalling to them. It's ok to hate Phelps, but a radical site like that
would
be a space they wouldn't know how to deal with
Keith says, "yep, he
blessed us with his
presence."
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Jackie, of course, technology
has been helping us queer sexuality for quite some time...like the
birth
control pill!"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Because I'm thinking of my
strange play with Photoshop--Jonathan's seen some of this--and it's led
to some
of my most queer moments"
Keith says, "it's so
clearly ok/not ok for them.."
RandyW ponders Jackie's
question.
Keith says, "and a very
very queer site, especially
when I teach it, is barbie.com"
Angela (guest) says, "how
would you define a queer
moment?"
Keith [to Jonathan
(guest)]: telephones too
Barclay (guest) says,
"good point
Keith"
Jackie (guest) says, "I
posted a picture of myself on
my office door. It was my head on a semi-nude male body"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"queer moment: when your sense
of your own possibilities for intimacy are stretched beyond the
hetero-normative imperative..."
Jackie (guest) says,
"Actually, he was just
shirtless--but he had a big old belt bucklt"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Buckle, that is."
Jonathan (guest) says,
"it was hot!"
Keith [to Angela
(guest)]: for me, the queer moment is when
a queer takes a text that may or may not itself be overtly queer and
read it in
a way that breaks beyond complusory heterosexuality. Any site can be
queer.
Jackie (guest) says,
"What was interesting is that it
REALLY freaked some people out"
RandyW says, "the point
of this book which i can't
remebmer is that the technology of the car (and the road) affected gay
male
social/sexual connections in
Jonathan (guest) says,
"because it looked so
real..."
Barclay (guest) says,
"have people scene Obscene
Interiors? It does just that kind of work?"
Jackie (guest) says, "The
combination of intimacy--we
know Jackie's face--and distance--that's not her body"
Keith [to Jackie
(guest)]: things that blur boundaries are
always dangerous
Jackie (guest) says,
"Desire--that body is
HOT--tempered by BUT WAIT, that's not Jackie"
Keith says, "and male and
female... probably
particularly dangerous in a lesbian, I would guess"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"but people who fool around with
technology, particularly communications technologies, have been doing
that for
some time..."
Jackie (guest) says, "Or
is it hers? Do I feel
attracted/disturbed by my attraction/disturbance?"
Keith [to Jonathan
(guest)]: what looked so real?
Keith lost track for a
bit
Barclay (guest) knows the
feeling
Barclay (guest) laughs
RandyW says, "Yes,
Jonathan -- I'm thinking off all the
Tolkien/techno-g eek connections going back years and years."
Keith [to Jackie
(guest)]: and especially do I feel
especially interested in the tensions between the two halves of the
picture [
Jackie (guest) says, "And
I -don't- think it would have
been nearly so disturbing to people if I'd pasted my head on a female
body; but
there's the notion of the lesbian as male/female/neither/all"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Queer, in other words."
Keith has pictures of him
in halk drag from Halloween: he
was Fairy God Daddy
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Tres trans..."
Jackie (guest) says, "So
to pat myself on the cyber
back, it felt like I was contributing to little frissons of queer
desire in the
office..."
Keith says, "half even"
Barclay (guest) pats
Jackie's back
Keith says, "big wings, a
pink wand, a tiara and a
leather jacket, blue jeans and big ol boots"
Barclay (guest) says,
"what kind of boots?"
Barclay (guest) smiles
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Jackie's comments link back to
an earlier comment about the technology allowing us all the more
effectively to
create sites of such disruption..."
Keith says, "brown work
boots"
Barclay (guest) says,
"good enough"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...in which we disrupt our OWN
desires..."
Jackie (guest) says, "So
I guess what I'd say is that
there's a certain ease with technology--not just technology
itself--that lends
itself to play, and perhaps particularly queer play"
Keith says, "ah that's
right, that's right"
Barclay (guest) says,
"'ease' after the learning
curve"
Keith says, "it's queer
to manipulate space in this
way"
Keith says, "which leads
to the final question:"
Keith says, " What, if
anything, has cyberspace done to
our conception of writing, of writing queerly including the kinds of
writing we
do for the World Wide Web?"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"is there something
fundamentally 'queer' about the technologies...their ability to put us
in touch
with networks of people..."
RandyW is reminded of all
the seemingly queer referents in
LambdaMOO, the "mother of all MOOs"
Keith [to RandyW]: it's
been years since I've been there..
what referents?
Jackie (guest) says,
"Well, maybe I'm just speaking as
a closet 18th century sort, but I think it's brought back the notion of
wit"
Keith nods
Barclay (guest) says,
"hence Obscene Interiors -- very
queer kind of writing"
Keith says, "I think my
ability to joke has really
helped my status in the gay community here in
Jackie (guest) says, "Wit
as the marker of strength, of
language as something manipulable and powerful, a way of claiming space
that
may not be available to us in RL"
RandyW says, "well, the
name for one. New guests enter
by coming out of a closet. And there's some Wizard of Oz, as well. But
as I
understand it, the creator said there was not explicity queer agenda."
Keith says, "i mean, an
older gay guy with hiv? I
should be invisible! Being the faculty advisor to the student LGBT
group in a
university town helps too of course"
Keith always wondered
about coming out of the closet in
Lambda
Saffista has reconnected.
Angela (guest) says, "hi
Saffista, welcome
back..."
Keith says, "wb,
Saffista"
Barclay (guest) says,
"reHi"
Saffista says, "thanks"
Jackie (guest) says, "And
I realize that maybe this is
a MOO cliche, but what about gender play?"
Barclay (guest) says,
"what about it?"
Keith remembers a night
at connections in which we all
gender shifted.
Jackie (guest) says, "I
can be a man? A woman? Well,
no, but....I can pick pronouns"
RandyW says, "and while
there was a significant gay
presence there,
Keith, is was not the
dominant community "
Keith [to RandyW]: it
sure wasn't!
Barclay (guest) says,
"that's true of chatrooms, too,
yes Jackie?"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"it's true of Webpages!"
RandyW says, "How many
genders do you want, Jackie?
We've got tons!"
Keith says, "and not just
gender; chat allows one to be
anyone.."
Jackie (guest) says, "So
in some ways, since we're
aware that the play is going on, that a SHE may not be an "embodied"
she, but"
Saffista says, "it gives
you the opportunity to
experiment, to explore"
Jackie (guest) says,
"many different genders...."
Saffista is big on
exploration
----------------------------------Keith
------------------------------- ---
Available genders: male,
female, Spivak, either, splat,
none, or royal
---------------------------Keith
stops pasting
------------------------ ---
Saffista smiles
Jonathan (guest) says,
"...that's the disruption of
desire..."
Jackie (guest) says,
"Such an easy way to show the
explosion of gender"
Jackie (guest) says,
"pow"
Barclay (guest) nods
Jonathan (guest) says, "I
can talk dirty to someone,
hope it's a man, but feel all the more frisson b/c it might not be..."
Keith knows a guy who
tested being HIV+ by coming out as
HIV+ in chatrooms first even though he wasn't
Jackie (guest) says,
"yes, that was ME the other night,
you bad boy"
Barclay (guest) say, "but
I usually assume the men I
chat with online are, indeed, men -- there are textual clues"
Keith says, "then
bug-chased till he went poz"
Keith says, "he said he
wanted to be sure he could deal
with the social realities of being HIV-poz first by trying it out
online."
Keith says, "that's an
extreme case..."
Barclay (guest) say,
"whoa"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"how much do we project into
those textual clues, Barclay?"
Keith says, "but it's
true"
RandyW had a multi-year
friendship with someone online --
and to this day is unsure of the person's gender.
Jonathan (guest) says,
"Do tell!"
Barclay (guest) say,
"good question, Jonathan -- I'm
not sure"
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
not sure if I ever learned
any social realities from time online--it's so different out here. :)"
Keith also knows a set of
twins here in laf who went
transgender online first and are now both getting ready for sex changes
operations
Keith says, "in rl"
Jackie (guest) says, "I'm
different online; I react
differently; I shape others' reactions differently than I might in
RL--so hard
to tell."
Saffista [to Jackie
(guest)]: that's true, but it can make
you feel more secure knowing the possibilities.
RandyW didn't know
Keith says, "oh yes, it's
the long history of drag
here"
Barclay (guest) laughs
and remembers the Quarter
Barclay (guest) say, "a
costume culture"
Keith says, "i am told by
some life long queers here
that they remember a tradition in which drag queens gave up drag for
Lent and
grew beards"
Barclay (guest) believes
it [
Keith says, "then cut the
beards off for Easter and
went back to dresses..."
RandyW is speechless with
delight.
Keith says, "it's very
much a costume culture here...
one of the two times in my life I've done drag was here"
Keith says, "cause I
figured, hey, who would possibly
mind?"
Barclay (guest) say, "it
was no big deal to do it in
N.O. -- and that was gendered drag or leather drag -- it was all drag"
RandyW passes out
costumes.
Keith says, "but now
everyone practices all this stuff
online first!"
Jackie (guest) grows a
beard
Jonathan (guest) shaves
his legs
Keith puts on a midnight
blue cocktail dress and pumps..
Barclay (guest) keeps all
his body hair
----------------------------------Keith
------------------------------- ---
@gender female Gender set
to "female". Your
pronouns: she, her, her, hers, herself, She, Her, Her, Hers, Herself
---------------------------Keith
stops pasting
------------------------ ---
Keith says, "there!"
Barclay (guest) say, "you
go girl!"
Jonathan (guest) shaves
Barclay's body hair
Keith says, "in the real
world that would take
months!"
Barclay (guest) say,
"Jonathan will pay for that"
Barclay (guest) smiles
evilly
Keith says, "well, it's
been an hour"
Jackie (guest) pastes
Jonathan's hair on as a big handlebar
mustache
Saffista laughs
Keith says, "and we're
moving towards Mardi Gras!"
Jonathan (guest) is
delighted...at the thought of the
handlebar mustache...and possible future punishment
Barclay (guest) say,
"Laissez les bon temps
roulez"
Keith laughs
Keith says, "you got that
right!!"
Barclay (guest) is
equally delighted
Keith says, "unless there
are further questions....
it's been great!!!"
Barclay (guest) say,
"aye, that it has"
Jonathan (guest) says,
"what's next, K-boy?"
Jackie (guest) says,
"much fun"
Barclay (guest) say, "how
about turning that damned recorder
off?"
Keith says, "next I put
this into a semblance of
order... including, I think, the play"
Keith says, "ok!"
Keith says, "randy, if
you want you can get a
transcrpit by typing ask recorder for text"
Jackie (guest) says,
"Make sure you get my mustache
right"
Keith says, "I will!"
Keith says, "let me know
when you will"
Keith says, "I'll send a
raw transcript to everyone
tomorrow morning... and an ordered transcript in a few days"
Barclay (guest) say,
"good deal"
[log closed]